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国外灰背隼训练

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爱心鹰友版主活力勋章

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发表于 2010-12-17 07:33:52 | 只看该作者 |只看大图 回帖奖励 |倒序浏览 |阅读模式

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希望今冬能好好玩一季,翻译了一篇老美的关于灰背隼训练文章,跟各位喜爱灰背隼的鹰友一起在探索中进步,希望这篇文章能给大家带来些许帮助,这样也算我也没白忙几个晚上
Training
训练
Preparing for Free Flight 准备自由放猎
  • Manning
    装备
  • tid-bits, 小块肉奖赏
  • weight reduction, 降体重
  • hood training/box training, 扣帽子训练
  • Creance flights 叫溜子
  • Introduction to lure 认饵
  • Baggies
    成鹰

Manning装备
I bring the new Merlin home, and fit her with all her new equipment. I attach the anklets with eyelets, put in the jesses, attach the swivel and leash. Next, I envelope the birds tail in packaging tape. I advise using some form of tail protector, I use packaging tape. If you choose to use the tape it is very important to use the correct tape. The tape you're looking for is the type you have to wet to activate the adhesive. Do not use "sticky" tape. This tape when dry will not stick to anything. I cut a piece that when doubled over is just slightly longer than the birds tail. I then cut tabs on one of the halves. I wet the tape, lay the bird's tail on one half, fold it over then fold the tabs around the edges. The great thing about this tape is that it will not fall off and when you're ready for it to come off you merely immerse the tape in water, the glue releases and it comes right off.
当我把生隼带回家后会给它带上必要的新装备。包括鸡眼扣,两开,五尺和转环。接下来我用包装胶带把隼的尾羽包上,我建议使用一些方法来保护尾羽,我个人使用的是包装胶带。通过把胶带用水浸湿来调节合适的粘性。我把胶带剪成尾羽宽度的长条能正好折过来包住尾羽,然后把胶带浸湿后包住尾羽。胶带的好处在于它不会轻易掉下来,而当你想把它弄下时,只需要把胶带浸入水中即可轻易地使之脱落。
As soon as the bird is fitted with all the necessary equipment I sit in a quiet place with the bird bare-headed on the glove and try to feed her a few bites, most merlins (the best merlins) will eat within the first hour. 一旦当隼被安上了必需的装备之后,我会坐在一个安静的地方,让隼不戴帽子站在手套上并且试着给它开食,大部分的灰背隼会在一小时内开食。
After about an hour on the glove I move the bird to a shelf-perch in the living room. As long as I'm home I leave the bird on the shelf bare-headed. As long as you avoid walking directly towards the bird or making direct eye contact she will typically sit quietly on the perch. It is very important at all stages of training that you keep an eye on the birds legs, merlins have delicate legs and if a bird bates too much she could easily bruise or damage leg scales - this should be avoided at all costs. When I leave the house, or when going to bed at night, I hood the merlin and leave her on the perch.

在手套上架了它一小时之后,我会把隼转移到起居室的隼台上。只要我在家,我就让隼不戴帽子站在台子上。只要你避免径直的走向你的隼或者用眼睛直接盯着它,它都会安静的站在台子上。在所有的训练阶段中,你都要特别注意保护隼的腿,灰背隼的腿很娇气,如果隼挣飞的太多,它就有可能抻到腿或者伤到明瓦。当我离开房间或者晚上去睡觉时,我都会给灰背隼戴上帽子让它站在隼台上。
From day one to free-flight, training should progress rapidly. Training is usually slowed by a reluctant falconer. By day three your merlin should be at a minimum stepping to the glove for food, and more typically hopping to the glove, the length of her leash indoors. Once she is hopping ten feet inside, move your training outside. By the end of the first week expect your bird to be flying twenty feet on a light creance line.
从训练的第一天开始到能够自由放猎,训练应该快速进展,训练的滞后通常都是由于鹰师的不情愿造成的。一般来说,经过3天的训练,你的灰背隼应该能够跳拳,最好能在室内跳拳5尺那么长的距离。一旦你的灰背隼在室内能跳拳十英尺,你就可以把训练移到室外进行了。在第一个星期结束时,期待你的隼能在室外叫20英尺的溜子。
Once you're confident that she will sit quietly on her perch while you're away you can leave her bare-headed. I set up a web cam on my birds at home and watch them from my computer while at work using the free "Microsoft Netmeeting" software. Available for download at www.microsoft.com/netmeeting 一旦你确信你的灰背隼会安静的站台子,你就可以在你不在时也不给它戴帽子,我在家安装了一个网络摄像头以便于能随时观察我的隼。
Hood Training
扣帽子训练
I leave the bird unhooded as much as possible. I believe this speeds the taming process. After the bird is eating well on the glove, usually by day three or four, I start feeding her tid-bits out of an upturned hood. I do my training flights, then finish feeding the daily ration by cutting it up into small bite-size pieces. I place a piece in an old hood and let the merlin feed from it like a small leather bowl. The bird will quickly begin to see the hood as something positive and move her head towards it when presented. I then start to slip it on her head while she's feeding on the glove, let her take a few bites then remove it.
我尽可能的让我的灰背隼不戴帽子,我认为这会加速驯化的过程。大概经过3,4天,在隼开大食之后,我开始把小块肉放在倒置过来的帽子里来喂我的隼。我进行隼的叫远飞行训练,然后把肉切成小块来喂完当天的规定食量。我在一个旧帽子中放一小块肉然后让灰背隼从中取食,就好像帽子是一个皮革制的碗。灰背隼很快会开始明白帽子是喂食的正面信号并且当我们拿出帽子时,它会把头凑向帽子。然后我就会当它在手套上吃食时趁机把帽子滑着扣上,让它再吃几块肉然后把帽子摘了。
It is very common for merlins to remain difficult to hood, especially in the field, so don't worry to much if your bird is difficult to hood. I've found I can usually hood even difficult birds by putting it on while they're feeding on the glove. I've only had one merlin that I could effortlessly hood all season.
灰背隼拒绝戴帽子非常普遍,尤其是在野外的时候。所以即使你的灰背隼很难扣帽子也不要太过心急,当隼在手套上吃食时,是戴帽的最好时机。我只有过一架灰背隼整个猎季都能不费劲的戴帽子。
Weight Reduction
体重降低
Weight reduction should progress very slowly, no more than a few grams per day. Never intentionally fast a merlin, I've had a few that wouldn't eat the first day. I had one merlin that I couldn't get to eat for three days - I released the bird and trapped another. I've found it easiest to manage a merlin's weight by calculating the percentage of trap weight daily. This is especially handy for people that have never flown a small raptor. You have to develop a small-bird mentality, where every gram matters. A weight drop of four grams doesn't sound like very much but a weight drop of two percent of body weight does, for a merlin four grams and two percent is the same thing.
降低灰背隼体重的过程应该要非常的缓慢,每天最多几克。对灰背隼不要操之过急,我曾有过几架灰背隼下网第一天都没有开食。我曾有架隼3天都不开食,后来我只好把它放了再去另拉一架。我发现用下网体重的百分比来掌控灰背隼的膘情比较容易,尤其对于那些没有接触过小型猛禽的鹰猎者来说。你要认识到对于一个小型猛禽来说,降几克体重对于出猎都有很大关系。也许降四克体重听起来不是很多。但是对于灰背隼来说,这相当于体重的2%
I try to drop the weight one to two grams per day if necessary, no more than two percent per day.
我试着每天降低一到两克的体重,每天最多不超过下网体重的2%
Introducing to the Lure
认饵训练
I use a small leather lure with a parachute cord lure-line - I remove the inner fibers from the parachute cord, tie a knot in the middle of the line and fill half of the line with BB's. This allows you to make the lure fairly soft and light while providing enough weight to prevent carrying.
我使用了一个小型皮革制假饵,我利用伞绳来作为假饵的绳子,我抽掉伞绳中的纤维,打个结
加上负重物,使得假饵既保证了柔软轻便,有能够提供足够的重量保证隼无法带饵飞走。
Merlins love their lures. Most will come from any distance to the lure. Introduce your bird to the lure once she is flying twenty feet to the glove outside. Do a few twenty-foot flights to the glove, then kneel down close to the ground and lay a well garnished lure on the ground. Tie enough food to the lure that she will have a good reward but still fly up to the glove when finished - I find a quail leg works well. If she's hesitant, you can move the her down to the ground if necessary, she'll hop off and walk over to the lure. Make sure you have your knee on the lure line or in some way make sure there is no way for her to drag the lure. Let her settle down and eat. If she tries to carry it off just sit very still until she settles down and eats. Once she is finished show her a garnished glove and she should hop right up. Soon she will blast from the perch as soon as the lure comes out of your vest.



灰背隼非常亲饵。大多数的隼无论多远都会奔饵飞来。当你的灰背隼在室外能够叫远20英尺之后,你就可以着手让你的隼认饵了。先按照常规进行几次20英尺的叫远训练,然后跪在地上并且把一个绑了肉的假饵放在地上,你要在假饵上绑上足够的食物来确保你的灰背隼抓饵后得到的肉食奖励足够丰厚但同时又不能绑太多,因为你要保证你的隼吃完假饵的肉还能叫到手套上,我发现一个鹌鹑腿效果不错。如果你的灰背隼犹豫不肯抓饵,你可以把你的隼尽量架低些,接近地面,这样它就会跳下手套然后飞到假饵上。确保你的膝盖压住了假饵绳子或者使用其他办法来保证你的隼无法拖动假饵。让隼稳当的在饵上吃完,如果它试图带走假饵,你只需要安静的坐着等隼自己逐渐安稳下来吃食。一旦它吃完了,用肉把隼叫回手套。很快的,只要你一亮出假饵,你的隼就会马上从隼台上飞过来。
I don't train my birds to catch the lure in the air, there's nothing wrong with this I just don't do it. I don't think it's necessary unless you're planning to lure fly your bird. Instead, I drop the lure to the ground and allow the bird to drop onto it.  Shortly after the bird is free-flying and hunting I stop garnishing the lure. I've never lost any quickness to the lure by not garnishing it.
我没有训练我的灰背隼在空中抓饵,这种抓饵训练并没有什么不好,只是我没选择这种训练方式而已,但是如果你想进行轮饵,那么你可以加入这样的训练。取而代之的是,我从来都是把假饵放到地上并且让隼落在上面吃,在解两开放猎之后,我就不在假饵上绑肉了,但是这并没有减低灰背隼对饵的亲近度。
While your bird is eating on the lure get in the habit of offering tidbits, this will pay off later when you're making-in to her on a kill. You want her to look forward to your approach. 当你的灰背隼在假饵上吃食的时候,你就要开始形成提供小块肉奖励的习惯,这个习惯会给你你带来方便,当你的隼放猎时摁住猎物时,它会期待着你的接近,而不会误以为你去抢食物而惊飞。
Baggies成鹰
Shortly after I start creance training I begin to incorporate bagged sparrows. I don't do it because I think you need to teach them how to kill things or that sparrows are tasty. It's the beginning of anti-carrying training. I want to know how my bird is going to act with a sparrow in it's feet, before she enters the field. Your goal in this section of training is to condition your bird to look forward to your approach and not to try to carry.
在进行叫溜子训练开始之后,我开始利用绑着的雀鸟成隼,并不是为了教灰背隼如何杀死猎物或者告诉它们雀鸟如何美味,而是作为防止带饵训练的开始。我想要知道我的隼在野外抓到猎物后会有何反应。你在这个阶段的训练目标就是保证你的灰背隼期待你的接近并且不会试着带鸟。
For the first sparrow I like to do a few normal creance flights to the glove. Then, I sit on the ground and throw a sparrow out about 6ft away. She will be quickly on top of this familiar meal. Then you do nothing. Let her kill it, she'll try to carry but you'll have the sparrow tethered to a twelve ounce fishing weight by a two inch string. Sit motionless, not looking at the merlin. She'll soon settle down and begin to eat. Only after she has eaten about half of the sparrow should you even think about direct eye contact. If she seems to have settled in you can try to give her a tidbit, if she looks at all nervous leave her be until she has finished, then step her to the garnished glove.
在成第一个鸟时,我喜欢先做几次常规的叫溜子,然后我坐在地上,抛出一个雀鸟使之离我6英尺远左右。灰背隼会很快的摁住它熟悉的食物,然后你什么都不做,让隼杀死鸟,它会试着带走鸟但是你在鸟身上绑上足够的负重(例如钓鱼用的铅坠)。安静平和的坐着,不要去看你的灰背隼,它会很快稳当然后开始打毛。只有当它吃到一半鸟的时候,你才可以直接盯着它看。如果它仍表现的很稳当,那么你就可以试着给它一块小块肉的奖励,如果它看起来非常紧张不堪,让它吃完,然后用肉叫回手套。
The next day and every day afterwards repeat the process, ending with a bagged sparrow. Within a few days you want to be able to walk around your bird while she is eating. Approach her on her kill and give her a tidbit; walk twenty feet away, then approach again and give her another. You'll want to do this a few times while she's eating.
接下来的日子重复这个过程,一次给成一个鸟。几天之后,你应该能够在你的隼进食的时候在它周围走动。
当它摁住猎物时,接近它并且给它一小块肉作为奖励,走开20英尺远,再重新接近你的隼继续给小块肉奖励,在它进食的过程中,你要把这个过程重复进行几次。
Once she seems comfortable with your approach and seems to understand that you have offerings you can try to pick her up off her kill. Wait until she has plucked and broken into her sparrow then you can try to pick her up off the bird. If she looks nervous don't rush it. I approach and offer a tidbit then offer a garnished glove for her to step to. She'll usually step off her sparrow and onto the glove within a few days.

一旦它习惯了你的接近并且似乎明白了你的接近会为它提供食物,那么你就可以把它从猎物上摘下来。
等到灰背隼开始打毛并且撕开了猎物,你就可以试着把它摘下来。如果它看起来显得很紧张,你就不要操之过急。我通常都会接近摁住猎物的灰背隼,然后喂它一小块肉并且在手套上放肉让它跳到手套上来,通常情况下,
经过几天的训练,灰背隼会放弃脚下的猎物转而飞到手套上的。

Entering on game (marked quarry)
实战放猎
(特定猎物)
  • First "Hunts"
    初次“放猎”
  • Baggie 成隼
  • Hunting wild game 野外放猎
First "Hunts"
初次“放猎”
  

Hunting
放猎
  • Flight styles 飞行方式
  • When they catch 抓猎的时候
Now for the tough part. Training a merlin to fly to you is no great accomplishment, they are typically tame and train to the glove very quickly. Catching stuff is the hard part. Passage merlins come out of the trap with a method of hunting they found successful in the wild. Merlins are highly variable in this respect and some very inflexible. Your first consideration in choosing a style is whether you want to adapt to how your bird seems to prefer hunting or whether you want to train her to your methods.   现在到了艰难的步骤了,训练一个灰背隼能飞向你(叫远,轮饵)并不是什么了不起的成就,它们相对来说较为容易驯服。能够放猎才是玩灰背隼最难的部分。每个灰背隼在野外已经形成了适合它们自身的捕猎方式,有些灰背隼会改变习惯的捕猎方式而有的则非常顽固的坚持早已适应的捕猎方式,你首先要考虑的就是,你想要选择何种放猎方式,是想顺应你的灰背隼原有的习惯,还是让隼适应你的放猎方式.
My first merlin was the toughest to get going – much of this was certainly due to my inexperience – she would ignore anything I flushed but would take off and fly 200ft up to chase some little bird flying over. This was obviously how she was hunting in the wild. 我的第一个灰背隼很难训——这主要归咎于我当初没有经验——它会无视我趟出的猎物然后起飞飞到200英尺高去追逐飞过的小鸟.显然,这种拔高的方式,就是它在野外所习惯的捕猎方式.
My cast Lilly and Rose were totally different from that bird and from each other. Lilly was very quick to get going and she chases anything and everything. She’s caught sparrows, doves, meadowlarks, robins and a snipe. Rose however was a pain to get going. She was obviously a bug catcher and would eat several dragonflies and a few big grasshoppers during our first hunts, and would completely ignore sparrows. After 2 weeks of frustrating failure I decided to bag her on set-up sparrow slips every day for 1 week. After that she took the next wild sparrow we flushed and has been deadly since. However she doesn’t chase anything else, she's only interested in sparrows.

我的两只对隼LillyRose 捕猎方式完全不同.Lilly下把非常迅疾,并且爱追逐所有的猎物.它抓过雀鸟,斑鸠,云雀,知更鸟还有一只鹬(非常难抓到的猎物)。Rose则不是那么积极,显然,它是个非主流的捕猎者,它会吃几个蜻蜓和大蚂蚱在我们的第一次捕猎中,并且会完全的忽视雀鸟。在失败了2周后,我决定连续一周成雀鸟,在那之后,它抓到了我驱赶出的第一只野生雀鸟,从此它变成了致命杀手.然而,它并不追逐别的猎物,只追逐雀鸟.
Flight Styles & Quarry 放猎方式和猎物
There are numerous ways to fly a merlins at game: pursuit flights, waiting-on, off the fist, from a t-perch, out of trees, ringing and I’m sure there are a few I haven’t seen. And there are many quarries to choose from: sparrows, starlings, blackbirds, doves, quail and snipe.

有许多放猎灰背隼的方式,例如:追逐飞行,盘猎,拳猎,环飞等并且我肯定还有许多方式我并未涉及过. 有许多种猎物供灰背隼(马莲)选择,例如:
雀鸟,八哥,乌鸫,斑鸠,鹌鹑和鹬.
The way I would classify my hunting style is “loose” on marked quarry. Once in the field, I unhood the bird, attach the transmitter, remove the jesses and cast off the merlin. I then walk the field looking for birds. The merlin flies around the field for a few seconds, warming up her engine, before taking perch in a nearby tree. Merlins differ and some spend most of their time sitting, waiting for a flush while others spend a lot of time flying around me and periodically landing when they get tired. When I bump a sparrow I watch closely where it puts-in and I mark the spot.我对我自己的放猎方式定义为“宽松”式.一旦进入猎场,我摘下隼的帽子,戴上追踪器,解两开然后放飞灰背隼. 然后我会在猎场内搜寻猎物。灰背隼会围着猎场飞上几秒,振翅热身,然后就近飞到一棵树上休息.有的灰背隼喜欢把大部分时间用在停留在树上休息,等待趟起的猎物.然而,有的灰背隼却喜欢把大部分时间耗在围绕着我飞行,然后飞累了之后落地。当我趟起一只雀鸟我会紧紧盯住它落的位置然后标记这点。


Once I make my way over to the marked spot I get into position and use my lure to call the merlin in for the flush. There are a variety of ways to flush a bird, away from the merlin, towards the merlin and out to the side. You get different types of flights with each of these flushes and pay close
attention to which your merlin is most successful. Most of the time I try to flush the sparrow out to the side if possible. If the sun is low on the horizon I find it very helpful to flush the sparrow with the sun directly behind the merlin, this gives her a slight advantage. 一旦我到达了我标记的猎物藏身的位置,我就用我的假饵把灰背隼唤来准备抓猎。有许多种趟起鸟的方式:让鸟远离垛子飞,让鸟朝向垛子飞,让鸟朝侧面飞(也就是让灰背隼能够飞出曲线来追击猎物,类似猎豹抓瞪羚时在内侧拐弯,这样曲率半径要小些,相对距离就短了)等,你要尝试不同的激飞猎物方式,并且细心观察,在哪种激飞方式下,你的灰背隼成功率最高。如果太阳低得在地平线附近,我发现让鸟背对着太阳飞的方式最容易成功,这样会给灰背隼非常明亮的视野优势。(阳光照到鸟背上,视野明显)
When They Catch放猎的时候
This is an area where I probably differ from most merlin trainers. During my early hunts when my bird catches a sparrow I do NOTHING. This can be a very difficult concept for falconers to grasp. Most of us have read too many books and listened to too many falconers describe the vast selection of making-in techniques. Early on we're taught that when our birds catch game we have to "do" something. We have to get in there and secure the bird and the prey. Neither is true when flying a passage female merlin on sparrows. And I suspect it's not necessary with a jack merlin either. A female merlin can carry a sparrow to a tree, eat it and will then fly down to the fist every time. I've had hundreds of sparrows carried to trees and eaten by my merlins and every one has flown right back down to the glove.
在有一点上,我和大多数的灰背隼鹰师不同。那就是在我的前期放猎过程中,如果我的灰背隼抓住了一只麻雀,我什么都不做。
这可能是一个非常难以接受的理论,我们中的绝大多数人都从书本上或者别的鹰师那里听到过“得做点什么”的说法。第一我们必须跑到那去,第二看护灰背隼和猎物。这两条并不是正确的,对于放猎马莲抓雀鸟来说。并且我还认为这对于放猎桃花或者蓝花抓鸟也不是必须的。一个马莲能够把鸟带食到树上,吃完,并且还会飞到拳头上(马莲的食量大,并且稳定性较高)。我已经放猎的雀鸟有上百只都是被我的马莲带到树上吃完的,但是每次它吃完都会飞下来回到手套上。
I can't be bothered with long drawn out anti-carrying training or cache training. As stated earlier, my goal is to get my birds hunting as soon as possible. The caching will come with time and the carrying is not a problem. In fact I suspect that the carrying will save your bird's life. I've had one merlin killed by a raptor and that bird was killed just after catching a sparrow while still on the ground. In comparison I've had merlins chased by raptors dozens of times while carrying a sparrow in their foot and they've always managed to evade their pursuer. I think a fit merlin can hold their own with just about any raptor in the sky. 我不会把太多时间花在如何进行防止挂食训练上,正如我前面提到的,我的目的就是让我的灰背隼尽快的能够放猎。随着放猎次数的增加(人隼亲和度信任度增加),挂食不会成为问题。事实上,我认为挂食会救你的垛子一命,我曾经有一个垛子被其他猛禽捕杀了,当时那个垛子正抓着一个麻雀在地上吃。我见过好多次放猎的垛子抓到了麻雀,然后垛子再被其他的猛禽追逐,每次垛子都能设法逃过追逐。我认为一个健康的灰背隼在空中会不畏惧任何猛禽。
It takes weeks if not months of training to train your bird not to carry, I think this time is better spent hunting and building your relationship with your bird. A merlin is not going to stop carrying until it has established a trusting relationship with you, either in the field or under a controlled training situation.

训练你的垛子不挂食会花费少则最少几周,多则近一个月的时间,我认为这些时间如果能用来花在放猎和建立人隼的亲和关系上会有更好的效果。无论是在日常训练中还是在野外猎场,灰背隼都不会停止带食,除非它和鹰师建立了牢固的信任关系。
In short, I don't mind my bird carrying. If they are going to cache they must carry - if they're not going to cache I would much rather my bird eat the sparrow in a tree rather than on the ground.

简而言之,我不介意我的灰背隼挂食。如果要它们储食,那么它们必须带食,如果它们不打算储食,我宁愿它们在树上吃鸟而不是在地上。
  附上几张爱隼的图,

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发表于 2010-12-17 17:40:12 | 只看该作者

鹰具快购导航:鹰帽   手套   脚绊/五尺子   转环   鹰哨   摘窝子   假饵   铃铛   隼台   鹰猎包/称   其他   更多>>...

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发表于 2010-12-17 09:16:42 | 只看该作者
沙发!~~值得研究!
本人是广西百色人,那边抓的游几乎都是拿来吃的,希望让人了解到鹰不应该拿来吃的。救助放生
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发表于 2010-12-17 09:26:23 | 只看该作者
顶起     好辛苦呀  

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大大有用的好文章,让我一下想通了不少曾经困惑的问题!  发表于 2014-6-20 02:59
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发表于 2010-12-17 10:03:59 | 只看该作者
大大有用的好文章,让我一下想通了不少曾经困惑的问题!
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发表于 2010-12-17 10:20:25 | 只看该作者
这文章得顶

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大大有用的好文章,让我一下想通了不少曾经困惑的问题!  发表于 2014-6-20 02:59
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发表于 2010-12-17 10:33:46 | 只看该作者
英翻中好水平,辛苦啦
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发表于 2010-12-17 10:48:32 | 只看该作者
写的太好了  收藏起来慢慢来  慢慢的理解。
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发表于 2010-12-17 11:52:49 | 只看该作者
顶楼主一下,翻译辛苦了,您的无私更要顶一下。

弱弱的问一下,您哪的垛子都是吃完了才称的吗?
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发表于 2010-12-17 12:11:04 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 Banzaifalcon 于 2010-12-17 12:16 编辑

这个文章看了很多遍了,你这个翻译的太好了,解决了很多问题。我的马莲也不限制带食,她现在落地上见到假饵会放弃鸟落在假饵上,落树上吃完会回来。这周我接着去成马莲去,争取放上,我也发现把隼放到树上要比直接举隼趟鸟效果要好,举隼哄鸟,鸟不敢往起飞。


我也做了体重表,189克,190,191,捕猎情况都能看出区别。196飞的圈子就很大,对假饵都不敏感

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发表于 2010-12-17 21:24:06 | 只看该作者
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    羡慕你。。羡慕你
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发表于 2010-12-17 23:19:48 | 只看该作者
真辛苦。。。。。。
翻译的真好,适合我这不懂外文的人学习。
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发表于 2010-12-18 01:17:56 | 只看该作者
辛苦了,马垛子真够大的!
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发表于 2010-12-18 12:28:57 | 只看该作者
敢问楼主的马莲 空素称多重
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